Rollbacked transfers

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  • #1 2021-03-23 08:22

    Verba wrote:

    Raid On is your real name Vlad and do you work at Robinhood?

    Thank you for your question. Very important question.

    When I was a little kid in Bulgaria(...)

    Yes or No?

    Last edited by TheLegend27 at 2021-03-23 08:23
  • #2 2021-03-23 08:23

    And there is the problem. You have a different point of view. They see the situation as it is. We have a game with rules set by the organization running it. These rules do not consider Banking illegal. So you want a change and needed to explain why this should be changed from your point of view. Others see the negative aspects of your proposals and state them. So they do not need to convince you. You have to convince the respective people deciding on rules adjustment, which you obviously did not succeed at. And ofc raid-on is not the one to be convinced.

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    I disagree, DrukenSailor. Raid on and others who defends these transfers endlessly do so without ever producing a compelling argument why banking should be allowed.

  • #3 2021-03-23 08:58

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    I disagree, DrukenSailor. Raid on and others who defends these transfers endlessly do so without ever producing a compelling argument why banking should be allowed.


    if no one ever contributed arguments why a rule against banking is outdated, how come a majority of game admins didn't team up to change rules? as game admins they possess the rights to handle transfer cases. so some kind of knowledge about transfer rules is required. in the end they are the volunteers who swim in extra work if optional rules produce unnecessary extra bureaucracy.

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    I don’t buy that. That’s why I’m trying to figure out if they morally think banking is fine. If they do, then we will at least learn why they truly defend banking.


    some users think that the feature of providing community help via demo and tactic sharing is or the simple act of copying tactics is immoral. based on that a innocent majority of csm suddenly looks immoral. is it contestable to apply a rule and law enforcement there? definitely, as it adds high extra workloads to game volunteers, punishes activity and ends up contradicting the game's spirit.
    your morality of house cards falls apart at the moment you publicly harass people by playing the morale police and trying to start an inquistion because someone shares a different point of view.

  • #4 2021-03-23 11:12

    DrunkenSailor, I already explained why I think banking is wrong. What I don't see is any arguments why banking as a concept is acceptable. Instead those who defend banking do so by coming up with endless reasons why it's impractical to enforce such a rule. Before we start discussing possible solutions it would be nice to know if we agree/disagree that banking is wrong.

    Raid on, you keep avoiding my question. Please just tell us if you think banking is okay or not. It's a really simple question: do you think it's okay to do a transfer with no intention to benefit your own clan but only to help a friend? A yes or no is sufficient.

  • #5 2021-03-23 11:25

    I think it's acceptable. Rules say so, too. It's the nature of things that all is allowed until forbidden. So I see no need to find reasons for it. You want something changed so you have to convince the respective people for a change. If I was to decide I wouldn't be convinced btw.

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    DrunkenSailor, I already explained why I think banking is wrong. What I don't see is any arguments why banking as a concept is acceptable. Instead those who defend banking do so by coming up with endless reasons why it's impractical to enforce such a rule. Before we start discussing possible solutions it would be nice to know if we agree/disagree that banking is wrong.

  • #6 2021-03-23 11:33

    Do you think it's acceptable because the rules says so? Or do you think it's acceptable that well-connected users can use their influence to make their friends do transfers on their behalf only to put them back on TL when it suites their plans?

  • #7 2021-03-23 13:07

    Yes and yes.

  • #8 2021-03-23 13:19

    So you don't think it's unfair that some users can leverage their friends to game the transfer list? For example you want a player but are not online during deadline. What do you do? No problem, you just ask your friend to buy him. Then immediately your friend put the player back on TL at a time that suites you.

    Is that fair to whoever else wanted the player in the first place? Your friend can just keep overbidding and "the market" will call it fair market price because there was a bid fight.

  • #9 2021-03-23 13:34

    they are allowed to bid on the player even if theres some type of banking attempt in play.

    If more than one manager wants the player, most likely a bidfight will occur, and it will most likely follow the market value. Sometimes it could be slitghly above market value because of the bidfight.
    But most people would call this normal.

  • #10 2021-03-23 14:32

    bumbiii wrote:

    they are allowed to bid on the player even if theres some type of banking attempt in play.


    A seller is not responsible for what a buyer does with a player. So is buyer not accountable for how the seller wants to sell his players by determining deadline and startbid.

    There can be a difference of visible things and background things. Presenting one possible other side of the medal:

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    So you don't think it's unfair that some users can leverage their friends to game the transfer list?


    Helping a friend to buy a player. Rest of the market can still overbid your friend.

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    For example you want a player but are not online during deadline. What do you do?


    Prebidding high enough to scare off all potential bidders or waiting for another opportunities including benefiting from failure of friends.

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    No problem, you just ask your friend to buy him.


    Proposal to your friend to buy a player meets his free manager decision to buy him.

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    Then immediately your friend put the player back on TL at a time that suites you.


    Your friend suddenly regrets his buying decision. You as friend help him by discussing it. But your friend doesn't want to give away the player for free. So you negotiate the transfer. Player is on TL again, player accessible for everyone else to overbid.

  • #11 2021-03-23 15:22

    You’re making all kinds of presumptions/excuses instead of answering my previous question: do you think it's okay to do a transfer with no intention to benefit your own clan but only to help a friend?

  • #12 2021-03-23 16:48

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    You’re making all kinds of presumptions/excuses instead of answering my previous question: do you think it's okay to do a transfer with no intention to benefit your own clan but only to help a friend?

    Your losing your time mate, its corrupted from the inside, no need to try to argue anymore...

  • #13 2021-03-23 17:22

    I didn't do any kind of banking as far as I remember. But I don't mind if others do.

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    So you don't think it's unfair that some users can leverage their friends to game the transfer list? For example you want a player but are not online during deadline. What do you do? No problem, you just ask your friend to buy him. Then immediately your friend put the player back on TL at a time that suites you.

    Is that fair to whoever else wanted the player in the first place? Your friend can just keep overbidding and "the market" will call it fair market price because there was a bid fight.

  • #14 2021-03-23 17:34

    Why would you mind banking when it's your community who mostly do it & benefit from it?

    And the fact that many of the admins making these decisions are also involved in these communites makes for a nice conflict of interest that nobody seems to mind.

  • #15 2021-03-23 17:49

    mathe wrote:

    And the fact that many of the admins making these decisions are also involved in these communites makes for a nice conflict of interest that nobody seems to mind.


    To debunk possible uprising conspiracy theories:
    Admins are expected to act neutral no matter who is suspect of breaking rules. More non-nouhaus are admin than nouhaus. Cases involved nouhaus can still be assigned to non-nouhau admins. Admins have the tools to monitor each other when needed. In case of misbehaving of one admin you can still contact a GA+ via mail for a complaint.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-03-23 17:56
  • #16 2021-03-23 20:20

    I'm amazed by your patience @raid-on. I'm out. Stupid circle with the same content free comments.

  • #17 2021-03-23 21:55

    Maybe im not smart enough but... What exactly would be wrong on putting sales tax on every sale instead of only the Profit?

    Even 10-20% would make a difference and avoid this actual rumble... So what exactly will be the Problem @raid and @drunken?

  • #18 2021-03-23 22:27

    mrcarlsen wrote:

    You’re making all kinds of presumptions/excuses instead of answering my previous question: do you think it's okay to do a transfer with no intention to benefit your own clan but only to help a friend?


    unserious bids are already forbidden in the rules:
    Quote:

    §4.1. When bidding, never bid (much) more than the market price for a player. Unserious bids are regarded as cheating. (Further information)
    Why?
    The CSM transfer market is based on supply and demand and is a free market. An unserious/unrealistic bid will be rolledback if it is much more than the market price as this is unfair to other managers selling similar players on the transfer list.

    What are examples for unserious bidding?
    a. Wasting your money when leaving the game.
    b. Attempting to get a bid rolled back to annoy the seller.
    c. Bidding on a friend or family members player to help them out.


    banking itself done with serious bids is definitely allowed. and it requires serious bids to make banking happen, else already failing because of rollbacking unserious bids.

    Rooney89 wrote:

    Maybe im not smart enough but... What exactly would be wrong on putting sales tax on every sale instead of only the Profit?

    Even 10-20% would make a difference and avoid this actual rumble... So what exactly will be the Problem @raid and @drunken?


    to target banking you want to punish a fresh innocent manager like arcane with extra 100k taxes over his 458 days? all because he managed well and actively took advantage of the transfer market?

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-03-23 22:48
  • #19 2021-03-23 23:01

    Why it is punishing? All will get this fee's so nobody is treatened or will have a benefit... It will only deduct the total amount of money in the game and that makes most sense to tighten the gap between the Managers with thousands of days and these with only a few hundreds for example

    My Personal opinion at this stage of the game with all maxed top 5 players would be another System anyways (salary cap space or maybe an financial fareplay rule or an maximum sales value Limit)

    Money is the key sure its always like that in a manager game but if you want to earn money with it you need to find a way so players spent it to keep the game on track...

    Transfers should be transparent enough so nobody get the feeling its a game only a few are allowed to... That scares the people who should pay money for the game... Maybe thats an possibility :

    Without vip you can do 5/10/x buys a season
    With normal vip you can do 10/15/x buys
    With vip Premium you can do 20/50/x/unlimited buys

    Stay the way it is and maybe the game will Loose more and more members and that results in cancelling the server...

  • #20 2021-03-23 23:09

    Rooney89 wrote:

    It will only deduct the total amount of money in the game and that makes most sense to tighten the gap between the Managers with thousands of days and these with only a few hundreds for example


    guys who keep players very long time are less affected. but as new user you need to upgrade your team a lot and getting a decent resale value helps to speed up the catchup. you sell it as closing gap but for real you slow down the gap closing for transfer active newcomers.

    Rooney89 wrote:

    Transfers should be transparent enough so nobody get the feeling its a game only a few are allowed to...


    transfers are transparent in csm. everyone can access the transferlist + can shortlist + observe every player on TL. serious bids result in approved transfers. unserious bids get rollbacked.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-03-23 23:23
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