Rollbacked transfers

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  • #1 2021-08-21 20:25

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    In light of the above, any admin care to explain how these sort of transfers are (i) on market terms and within market price and (ii) being allowed ?

    Sure.

    He checks the TL and sees someone bidding high bids on players. 👍🏼

    He contacts that person and says they should take a look and if interested buy his player as well. 👍🏼

    In other words:

    These aren't accounts that just suddenly come alive and bid on his players only and then disappear. This might not be the case at hand, but previous dealings would argue otherwise.

    All these accounts span over multiple nationalities and countries. How is he supposed to coordinate all of this "cheating" over so many random and completely unrelated people he doesn't even know? Irrelevant in terms of evaluating the behaviour and “pattern”.

    Ans also, 0/5 activity means nothing. I might even have 0 activity right now for all I know. I haven't even checked lol. Yet I'm here all the time. It’s relevant when we’ve (the active community playing on equal / fair terms) have witnesses 20+ cases involving josse and an inactive user suddenly being interesting in acquiring josse player at obscure prices, but afterwards goes back into inactivity.

    If the bid is extremely unrealistic it will be rolled back. Which is the case at hand. Have you checked TL-prices lately ?

    If the bid is just perhaps a bit too high it will not. How would you rate 40-50 % above market price ?

    Someone contacting TL bidders to advertise their players is not against the rules. 👍🏼 But it has to be taking into consideration in viewing the transfer in light of para. 4.2 of the rules.

    josse being a "difficult" or a generally disliked person has no bearing over whether he broke the rules or not. 👍🏼👍🏼 Agree. I don’t care about the pathetic human being josse may or may not be. What I care about is this transfer in itself - and the pattern of 20+ transfers we’ve seen over the years and which the admin team has handled poorly and/or without the respect of the rest of the community playing on market / fair terms.

    See the above + answer to mathe.

    Last edited by J0nas at 2021-08-21 20:29
  • #2 2021-08-21 20:28

    Quote:

    Rollback.

    Based on objective criteria such as market price, this transfers has to be rendered 40-50% above market price.

    Practice is, that such transfers are rollbacked.

    I mean, that guy literally just bought another player at that price range before he bought josse one's.

    That's how josse found him.

    He saw that guy biding high on the TL so he contacted him and advertised his player.

    Clearly that person considers that for him paying that much is worth it?

    If it were an account that only logged in 2 times the last 4 months and then coming online and bids straight on josse's player then that's would be weird - but in itself still not a proof for anything.

    I personally would be furious if after game play inactivity I'd come back wanting to build a lineup as fast as possible but all my bids were rolled back allegedly to "protect me" from myself making a "mistake". I'd just quit for good right then and there.

    Also, very important (important for real life court cases as well, as apparently you're a lawyer): Your personal feelings about the character of someone is completely irrelevant. I think in these cases you ought to recuse yourself. :-) I think that's the term.

    Last edited by Apoc at 2021-08-21 20:30
  • #3 2021-08-21 20:32

    The guy has spend 2.5m for 4 players so far. So he can afford paying small overprice.

  • #4 2021-08-21 20:33

    Critical_Error wrote:

    The guy has spend 2.5m for 4 players so far. So he can afford paying small overprice.

    Yes, but one of those was josse's so clearly they are cheating, because we know josse is bad. I know because I that's how I feel about it.

    /s

    Last edited by Apoc at 2021-08-21 20:33
  • #5 2021-08-21 20:38

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    Rollback.

    Based on objective criteria such as market price, this transfers has to be rendered 40-50% above market price.

    Practice is, that such transfers are rollbacked.

    I mean, that guy literally just bought another player at that price range before he bought josse one's.

    That's how josse found him.

    He saw that guy biding high on the TL so he contacted him and advertised his player.

    Clearly that person considers that for him paying that much is worth it? This is a false statement. Yes, he saw him bidding on a somewhat similar player (with whiner icon), but seasonal price on that player was around 30-33k afaik. You can’t compare 30k seasonal to 55k, which is the price of josse’s player.

    If it were an account that only logged in 2 times the last 4 months and then coming online and bids straight on josse's player then that's would be weird - but in itself still not a proof for anything. You have to evaluate all objective factors when determining if a transaction is happening on “market terms”. Clearly this isn’t the case at hand, and if the buyer was an active part of the game he would no and we wouldn’t see such dealings.

    I personally would be furious if after game play inactivity I'd come back wanting to build a lineup as fast as possible but all my bids were rolled back allegedly to "protect me" from myself making a "mistake". I'd just quit for good right then and there. You may or you may be thankful for a bit of guidance and help. I’m not saying he can’t buy the player from josse; the transaction just need to be somewhat on market terms, which is not the case. You have to look at things in the grand scheme, and in that regard it’s the admin team’s most important role to ensure no abuse / exploitation and free and fair competition for all.

    See the above

  • #6 2021-08-21 20:39

    Apoc wrote:

    Critical_Error wrote:

    The guy has spend 2.5m for 4 players so far. So he can afford paying small overprice.

    Yes, but one of those was josse's so clearly they are cheating, because we know josse is bad. I know because I that's how I feel about it.

    /s

    Critical’s transfer needs to be rolled back as well.

    Extremely overpriced in today’s market.

  • #7 2021-08-21 20:42

    Apoc wrote:

    Also, very important (important for real life court cases as well, as apparently you're a lawyer): Your personal feelings about the character of someone is completely irrelevant. I think in these cases you ought to recuse yourself. :-) I think that's the term.

    Are you kidding me ?

    Is this the level of the admin team ?

    No wonder we are in a shithole.

  • #8 2021-08-21 21:02

    we are such a bunch of ppl jealous of josse succes on the transfer market, but hey, when even 1337 join every FL's of his , i guess they just don't care about TL or new managers . ( who might quit the game after they see this sh** house)

  • #9 2021-08-21 21:05

    Quote:

    Are you kidding me ?

    No.

    Most of your arguments seem to be based on emotions and your personal feelings and opinion.

    I am sorry but that's just how it is.

    Imagine if the admin team would have based its decision on arbitrary opinions and feelings and things such as "well everyone knows that user X is ..., therefore clearly..."

    We'd already be at 0 users ages ago.

  • #10 2021-08-21 21:11

    Quote:

    You can’t compare 30k seasonal to 55k, which is the price of josse’s player.

    You will need to look at things in context.

    If someone bids 2 csm on a 1 csm player is that transfer cheating? It's overpriced by 100%, so it clearly is, right?

    The situation is clearly different if it's 500k -> 1m (just an example).

  • #11 2021-08-21 21:11

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    Are you kidding me ?

    No.

    Most of your arguments seem to be based on emotions and your personal feelings and opinion.

    I am sorry but that's just how it is.

    Imagine if the admin team would have based its decision on arbitrary opinions and feelings and things such as "well everyone knows that user X is ..., therefore clearly..."

    We'd already be at 0 users ages ago.

    Are you unwilling or unable to read ?

    Try addressing just one of my points that more or less all relates to obejctive, weightable facts.

    Instead you are throwing around false statements and trying to dislink the discussion.

    Try staying on the topic. It would be appreciated.

    If unable; please send a real admin.

  • #12 2021-08-21 21:16

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    You can’t compare 30k seasonal to 55k, which is the price of josse’s player.

    You will need to look at things in context.

    If someone bids 2 csm on a 1 csm player is that transfer cheating? It's overpriced by 100%, so it clearly is, right?

    The situation is clearly different if it's 500k -> 1m (just an example).

    The player in question was sold app. 75 days / 1,5 seasons ago (!) with the same amount of training, same limits, same experience, same amount of icons (0) etc. for a grand total of 487k.

    487k equals a seasonal cost of ~39k (487k / 12,5 seasons).

    600k equals a seasonal cost of ~55k (600k / 11 seasons).

    These are facts.

    In what world has the player become 113k in purchase price / ~16k in seasonal costs more expensive in the same period; care to elaborate on this ?

  • #13 2021-08-21 21:21

    Apoc wrote:

    Critical_Error wrote:

    The guy has spend 2.5m for 4 players so far. So he can afford paying small overprice.

    Yes, but one of those was josse's so clearly they are cheating, because we know josse is bad. I know because I that's how I feel about it.

    /s

    As a GM i just want to remind you that you should always act neutral. You can obviously have your own opinion which is fair, but joking around with other users arguments/opinions seems quite wrong coming from an admin.
    Regarding this transfer, I can accept the transfer isn’t a clear rollback but once again, this isn’t the first time transfers like this are made by such user (josse who I personally have nothing against). But in a sportsmanship / etiquette pov, something should be done within current rules in order to avoid members benefiting from this kind of “flaws”. I mean, maybe 2 or 3 times this would be “acceptable”, 20+ obviously no.

  • #14 2021-08-21 21:50

    Guys dont be mad if some people handle transfermarket better.

  • #15 2021-08-21 21:55

    Critical_Error wrote:

    Guys dont be mad if some people handle transfermarket better.


    Some less lucky guys just run an expense sponsor and work hard on TL to find 6 players for profitable resales every season.

  • #16 2021-08-21 22:08

    Raid on wrote:

    Critical_Error wrote:

    Guys dont be mad if some people handle transfermarket better.


    Some less lucky guys just run an expense sponsor and work hard on TL to find 6 players for profitable resales every season.

    Some are just rank #1 pro better in game.

    Now, can we stay on topic ? This Apoc fellar really seems like a smart person that is able to teach me a life lesson or two.

  • #17 2021-08-21 22:16

    Quote:

    Are you unwilling or unable to read ?

    Sorry for the mild trolling (while still managing to drive key points across, even so), but repeatedly you're been extremely disdainful towards multiple people here. You are clearly not objective and are arguing in bad faith. The occasional slips of calling the "accused" person pathetic, asking people if they are "kidding" if they comment something you personally have a different opinion on gives it all away.

    I personally hate unnecessary formalism and pompousness for the sake of it - especially in an online game. Some of you guys are taking yourselves way too seriously.

    That being said, let's address your points (again):

    Quote:

    You have to evaluate all objective factors when determining if a transaction is happening on “market terms”. Clearly this isn’t the case at hand, and if the buyer was an active part of the game he would no and we wouldn’t see such dealings.

    Please tell me what those objective factors are.

    That the player may have been slightly overpriced? - Maybe. But someone's 'overpriced' is someone else's "I need this player right now and I have 10 million csm so it's not expensive for me'

    Or are you talking about the fact josse had similar sales? - Because if yes, all that shows is that his transfers should be scrutinised much closely but does not affect the outcome of an individual case just by itself. It might look suspicious warranting an investigation but it does not determine or prescribe the outcome of a present individual case.

    Quote:

    You may or you may be thankful for a bit of guidance and help.

    No, I would not. It's condescending, arrogant and patronising.

    I understand it in the case of a totally new user who just signed up, but just because someone was semi-active for X years does not mean we need to somehow come and rescue him from his own decisions. This is a manager game.

    I guess this is more philosophical rather than anything about the game rules.

    So far we did not try to protect old managers from their own potentially bad decisions. (in this case it's arguable if that guy paying that much for that player was bad for him - he seems to be loaded. He clearly seems to know what he's doing).

    You may not like this and would want this to be changed and that's a legit position to have and definitely worth discussing. I personally disagree but if the majority of users and admins would like these to be handled that way from now on then sure, let's do that.

    Open a topic about this subject and let's see where it lands. If the majority clearly are in favour of this then the rules will be changed.

    Quote:

    If the bid is extremely unrealistic it will be rolled back. Which is the case at hand. - Have you checked TL-prices lately ?

    Yes.

    I don't think it was extremely unrealistic.

    It may heave been somewhat higher than usual but not extremely unrealistic.

    These are also very subjective. None of this would even be an issue if it weren't josse involved.

    Quote:

    You have to look at things in the grand scheme, and in that regard it’s the admin team’s most important role to ensure no abuse / exploitation and free and fair competition for all.

    Sure, but we can't make assumptions just on what we may think might be happening based on our personal opinion.

    Does what josse doing seem off? - Maybe, perhaps.

    Is he cheating? - He very well could be but we need to see actual and clear evidence that concretely proves this and not just "well it's clear that...", "it looks obvious that...", clearly he is..." - none of those actually mean anything at all, objectively.

    And there are alternative explanations, such as him simply contacting people from the TL whom he seems bidding on players asking them to buy his players. Which actually turns out to be exactly the case.

    Now, it would be something totally different if he were to offer them stuff in return such as "buy my player and I'll give you X coins, tactics, real money, pokemon cards, etc." - if he does that then that's clearly cheating, but - at least at this particular moment we're talking here - I am not aware of anything like this happening.

    Last edited by Apoc at 2021-08-21 22:26
  • #18 2021-08-21 22:37

    Quote:

    Sorry for the mild trolling

    It’s misplaced and unnecessary. Especially in the capacity as an admin.

    As I’m on my phone I cba to provide an answer to your entire post, but will just state this:

    1. You don’t seem to address the case / issue at hand accepting (yet another) overpriced transaction. You merely state : “I don’t think it’s extremely overpriced”.

    First of all, On the basis of what exactly ? I’ve already stated my key points, and basis for my opinion on why it is overpriced (by 40 - 50 %), you should state yours.

    Secondly, the rules doesn’t state “extremely overpriced”. It says “much more”, “unrealistic” and “that you are not allowed to transfer money from one account to another”.

    2. Wrath previously stated that the admin team had not looked into any PM that may or may not have been send.

    Have you checked this by now ? Or are you just jumping the gun ?

  • #19 2021-08-21 22:44

    Quote:

    It’s misplaced and unnecessary. Especially in the capacity as an admin.

    So is your obvious hostility.

    But yes, you are of course right. It does not justify my sarcasm.

    I am sorry if I offended you. Really.

    Quote:

    First of all, On the basis of what exactly ?

    Given the context of who the bidder was and his history of previous bids and purchases.

    Quote:

    Secondly, the rules doesn’t state “extremely overpriced”. It says “much more”, “unrealistic” and “that you are not allowed to transfer money from one account to another”.

    We can debate if it was much more or unrealistic. That's a legit position.

    It however was not "transferring money from one account to another". - This one implies that the buyer never actually wanted to buy the player but had an agreement with the seller to buy his player to give away his money.

    You will need concrete evidence for this, clearly proving that this was actually the case.

    The first two, "much more" and "unrealistic", sure that's a valid point worth discussing and debating. But like said, for money transfer you do need concrete proof that it wasn't just the buyer misjudging the real price and paying a high bid (or even intentionally paying more just to ensure he gets the player, because he has a lot of money)

    Last edited by Apoc at 2021-08-21 22:48
  • #20 2021-08-21 22:49

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    First of all, On the basis of what exactly ?

    Given the context of who the bidder was and his history of previous bids and purchases.

    Quote:

    Secondly, the rules doesn’t state “extremely overpriced”. It says “much more”, “unrealistic” and “that you are not allowed to transfer money from one account to another”.

    We can debate if it was much more or unrealistic. That's a legit position.

    It however was not "transferring money from one account to another". - This one implies that the buyer never actually wanted to buy the player but had an agreement with the seller to buy his player to give away his money.

    You will need concrete evidence for this, clearly proving that this was actually the case.

    The first two, "much more" and "unrealistic", sure that's a valid point worth discussing and debating. But like said, for money transfer you do need concrete proof that it wasn't just the buyer misjudging the real price and paying a high bid.

    1sr: So your “evaluation” is detached from current market prices ?

    2nd: Rules are silent on your “interpretation” of what constitute an irregular transfer of money. I’m no expert, but to me specific rule / clause has a much broader meaning and could be very well applied in a situation as this with the seller being handed 170-200k for nothing.

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