Rollbacked transfers

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  • #1 2021-08-21 22:52

    J0nas wrote:

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    You can’t compare 30k seasonal to 55k, which is the price of josse’s player.

    You will need to look at things in context.

    If someone bids 2 csm on a 1 csm player is that transfer cheating? It's overpriced by 100%, so it clearly is, right?

    The situation is clearly different if it's 500k -> 1m (just an example).

    The player in question was sold app. 75 days / 1,5 seasons ago (!) with the same amount of training, same limits, same experience, same amount of icons (0) etc. for a grand total of 487k.

    487k equals a seasonal cost of ~39k (487k / 12,5 seasons).

    600k equals a seasonal cost of ~55k (600k / 11 seasons).

    These are facts.

    In what world has the player become 113k in purchase price / ~16k in seasonal costs more expensive in the same period; care to elaborate on this ?

    Do you take any of the above facts into consideration when determining wether a bid / price is “much more” than market price / “unrealistic” ?

  • #2 2021-08-21 22:53

    Quote:

    2nd: Rules are silent on your “interpretation” of what constitute an irregular transfer of money. I’m no expert, but to me specific rule / clause has a much broader meaning and could be very well applied in a situation as this with the seller being handed 170-200k for nothing.

    I understand why you see it that way.

    It was however not applied in that sense historically.

    Money transfer always meant someone buying a player for the sole reason to give away their money to someone else while not actually wanting the player.

    Again, it's something that can definitely be changed if that's what the majority actually wants and it's worth a debate.

    I am not implying your interpretation is not justified. It's just that it wasn't done and interpreted like this historically.

  • #3 2021-08-21 22:56

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    2nd: Rules are silent on your “interpretation” of what constitute an irregular transfer of money. I’m no expert, but to me specific rule / clause has a much broader meaning and could be very well applied in a situation as this with the seller being handed 170-200k for nothing.

    I understand why you see it that way.

    It was however not applied in that sense historically.

    Money transfer always meant someone buying a player for the sole reason to give away their money to someone else while not actually wanting the player.

    So the rule could very well have been applied to previous dealings of some of the involved managers.

    Gotcha.

  • #4 2021-08-21 23:00

    Quote:

    Do you take any of the above facts into consideration when determining wether a bid / price is “much more” than market price / “unrealistic” ?

    Yes.

    Another pricing factor (like in real life prices as well) is someone's subjective opinion about the value of a player.

    For someone with 10 million csm a player can be worth 100k but for someone with 500k perhaps 50k would be too much.

    Prices are always dynamic. In real life as well.

    In my opinion (and I may very well be wrong here), admin intervention should only happen if a bid is clearly outside of any objective reality ie. 100k player for 500k, obvious troll bids, transfer cheating etc. - also exception to this when it involves new managers who accidentally bid too high due to ignorance.

    Again, all of the above is debatable. I can see why many could disagree.

  • #5 2021-08-21 23:10

    Apoc wrote:

    Again, all of the above is debatable. I can see why many could disagree.


    the time resources of game admins seem very limited. they cannot shortlist hundreds of players everyday + learn their exact prices to set up rigid price limits. quick decisions need to be made to approve or rollback transfers.
    if mrkaizer's is occupied by reading the entire communcation of thousands of users everyday, who will be left coding for the game?
    developing an algorithm which automatically replaces the transfer check job of all game admins and only considers objective factors without seeing "names" would prolly require too many coding resources.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-21 23:12
  • #6 2021-08-21 23:14

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    Do you take any of the above facts into consideration when determining wether a bid / price is “much more” than market price / “unrealistic” ?

    Yes.

    Another pricing factor (like in real life prices as well) is someone's subjective opinion about the value of a player.

    For someone with 10 million csm a player can be worth 100k but for someone with 500k perhaps 50k would be too much.

    Prices are always dynamic. In real life as well.

    In my opinion (and I may very well be wrong here), admin intervention should only happen if a bid is clearly outside of any objective reality ie. 100k player for 500k, obvious troll bids, transfer cheating etc. - also exception to this when it involves new managers who accidentally bid too high due to ignorance.

    Again, all of the above is debatable. I can see why many could disagree.

    Pardon my french, but to me you (admins) are taking the piss on the rest of the community by your approach.

    You are approving transfer that are genuinely unrealistic and “much more” than market price. In addition, seller tends to be the same, and buyers tends to be “pawns” that are very unlikely to stick around and play the game after the transaction.

    You have all the rules needed at your disposal; yet you do nothing.

    You may have painted yourself into a corner by allowing such behaviour / pattern historically, but that doesn’t mean that the practice shall be continued without being questioned and reflected upon.

    You seem to want to come across as being smart; act like it.

    Edit: you previously referred to my personal occupation as a lawyer (which is completely irrelevant) and wanting to lecture me on aspects of court cases (?). I don’t know in which jurisdiction you live (Romania I trust), but in most civil law systems repetitive offences / behaviour matters and is being applied (i) to establish a pattern and (ii) to sanctions.

    Perhaps you (admins) should consider doing the same.

    Last edited by J0nas at 2021-08-21 23:28
  • #7 2021-08-22 02:12

    hello everyone

    i want a confirmation of this "very competent" admin team :

    am i allowed to mail inactive/idiotic bidders and convince them to buy my shit players overpriced, even by offering something in exchange (for example tactics or other help in the game later on) ?

    if you really believe this bid happend without a contact before (mail, discord, no idea), then you are babys living in a world of cottoncandy. first, the bidder overbids josse on a stupid whiner bid, then he bids on his very own players a massively overpriced fee as well -

    i want to have this clear in THIS very thread, because long long ago, i got an identically situation rolledbacked, where my bidder wanted to quit the game soon, and didnt give a shit for overpricing - i understood it back then, because the transferlist has to be fair, and noone should get advantage by "lucking out" a stupid bidder, that overprices before leaving. but it seems, like always, that the admin team gives a shit about consistency when deciding cases -

    but yes, if you make clear here and right now, that this kind of transferring is ok, then i will start mailing tons of ppl asap too, am sure i will find some "small overprices" like CE calls it, as well.

    on a sidenote, this player would go for 400k in an open market. if 50% is a small overprice, we are livin in a different world of "small" obviously. if this happend in a bidwar, not much to be done, but this is shady as fuck (no surprise on josse deals )

    Last edited by vali at 2021-08-22 02:14
  • #8 2021-08-22 02:25

    vali wrote:

    but yes, if you make clear here and right now, that this kind of transferring is ok, then i will start mailing tons of ppl asap too, am sure i will find some "small overprices" like CE calls it, as well.


    mailing tons of ppl at once sounds like spam and might lead to a communication ban if receivers report it. wouldn't recommend doing it.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-22 02:25
  • #9 2021-08-22 02:31

    Apoc wrote:

    I mean, that guy literally just bought another player at that price range before he bought josse one's.

    That's how josse found him.

    He saw that guy biding high on the TL so he contacted him and advertised his player.

    thats wrong apoc.

    i was watching these players very clearly, cause the supply is not that good that it is hard to have an overview.

    it started with a josse bid on a whiner (sold by reserv). josse got overbidden by this inactive guy (i know this 100% because everyone i talked to was like "am sure josse mailed this dude to overbid him, cause he realised to buy this whiner, is a misstake"). close after this had happend, josse put his guy on TL for overprice³ and the noa dude bidded, AFTER THIS the noa dude bidded on another 22yo with sick limits (who went for like 700k). yes, the 700k guy joined his team first, but that says nothing about when the bids happend.

    anyway, please confirm it is allowed to "convince" players via private mail to bid overprice on your players, would be nice to know.

  • #10 2021-08-22 02:39

    Quote:

    Pardon my french, but to me you (admins) are taking the piss on the rest of the community by your approach.

    You are approving transfer that are genuinely unrealistic and “much more” than market price. In addition, seller tends to be the same, and buyers tends to be “pawns” that are very unlikely to stick around and play the game after the transaction.

    You have all the rules needed at your disposal; yet you do nothing.

    You may have painted yourself into a corner by allowing such behaviour / pattern historically, but that doesn’t mean that the practice shall be continued without being questioned and reflected upon.

    You seem to want to come across as being smart; act like it.

    Edit: you previously referred to my personal occupation as a lawyer (which is completely irrelevant) and wanting to lecture me on aspects of court cases (?). I don’t know in which jurisdiction you live (Romania I trust), but in most civil law systems repetitive offences / behaviour matters and is being applied (i) to establish a pattern and (ii) to sanctions.

    Perhaps you (admins) should consider doing the same.

    I don't know when that didn't happen. I was hoping hu7k's case was the last straw but nothing is changed and there's no will to change things. As I've said in the previous post, this can't be allowed to continue. They are just 7-10-15 users that should and will be overruled by an equal amount of managers + 1. But hey, 'eVeN tHe NeW oNeS aGreEd'.

    And the worst part isn't that they were normal users two days ago, forum admins yesterday and today they are judging transfers. The worst part is that to apply to become an admin you have to fill a stupid form. Which begs the question: The best form wins? Or the ones that are liked/approved by current admins? And the circle continues. Ofc I took a piss on that form. If they've wanted to change something, they've would've placed different scenario/cases as test and see the actions they would take with the rulebook in front of them. With points given based on the answers.

    Quote:


    i want a confirmation of this "very competent" admin team :


    i think this is the best admin team this game had. but ain't enough anymore.

    Quote:

    am i allowed to mail inactive/idiotic bidders and convince them to buy my shit players overpriced, even by offering something in exchange (for example tactics or other help in the game later on) ?


    yes, you are allowed, but they can rollback . make it look legit. have ur bidder do some stupid shit. preferably on csm-agent players.

    Quote:


    but yes, if you make clear here and right now, that this kind of transferring is ok, then i will start mailing tons of ppl asap too, am sure i will find some "small overprices" like CE calls it, as well.


    I can sell bidders for coins. One 50 coins, two 500 coins because legit transfer 100% from the bidfight. And when I say coins I mean dogecoins. No more CSM-Coins transactions from me til things change. Got two mails in the past week from people wanting to buy tactics. Gave them for free to cut down coins purchase. 'fOr fReE' wink-wink .

    Quote:

    on a sidenote, this player would go for 400k in an open market. if 50% is a small overprice, we are livin in a different world of "small" obviously. if this happend in a bidwar, not much to be done, but this is shady as fuck (no surprise on josse deals )


    Not a small overprice, but as we were already explained by people qualified enough to be admins, a 2csm bid can be 100% overprice.

  • #11 2021-08-22 02:52

    vali wrote:

    anyway, please confirm it is allowed to "convince" players via private mail to bid overprice on your players, would be nice to know.


    which kind of overpricing is meant? imho there are 2 kinds of overprices:
    -tolerated legal overprice aka "more than market price but not much more" = the headroom between market price and price that triggers a rollback to allow some price dynamics of a free market
    -illegal overprice = triggers a rollback

    a small break down:
    -mailing to advertise a player type someone really seeks = not against the rules
    -mailing to advertise a player type someone doesn't really seek = spam, against the rules because of "The user is not permitted to use the mail function or the forum to send chain mails, spam, illegal or other improper messages." in EULA
    -telling how much a player is worth without triggering rollback = allowed, it's very important for a bidder to avoid rollbacks, a seller doesn't want to to pay extra salary + TL fees because of rollbacks
    -fooling someone about what a player is really worth? prolly allowed? f.e. see people exaggerating player strength/value in transfer forums with texts like "THUS WINNING COUNTLESS CHAMPION'S LEAGUE AND WORLDWIDE TOURNEMANET TROPHIES FOR HIS TEAM!", mostly csm doesn't fix approved bad deals because of "The user is also completely responsible for everything that is done from the user's account." in EULA
    -trying your luck by setting up a too high SB = allowed , mostly trouble is on side of the buyer if the bid triggers a rollback
    -mailing to arrange breaking the rules = against the rules, see "The user is not permitted to use the mail function or the forum to send chain mails, spam, illegal or other improper messages." of EULA

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-22 03:01
  • #12 2021-08-22 02:53

    So this thread is the living proof this game needs a watchdog. Being very experienced in this field, I will create an unofficial admin team consisting in 14 users. The number will always be calculated based on the formula: admin team+1. This way, any wrong doings of the admin team will be nullified. Yea, it's that bad.

  • #13 2021-08-22 03:06

    @ raid : i know pretty well :p

    when i started in S48 or whatever, i used every (legal) way to earn money. when i was selling a player, i wondered if i am allowed to mail users "i have someone you might be interested in", so i mailed admins askin around when or when not i am allowed to mail others. answer :

    allowed, if

    1) the guy was bidding on similar players, in other words, he showed interest
    2) the guy wasnt some kind of "friend" that should do me a favor bidding hugely overpriced

    not allowed, according to admins back then :

    1) mail someone that has shown absolutely no interest in a player similar to yours (i.e. a team bidding only on youth picks, and you mail them with a 30yo godlike)
    2) mail someone that is inactive/not bidding at all

    so my problem in this case (that, from what i understood in this thread, was never checked) : did josse MAIL this dude _BEFORE_ all this started? in other words, was the bidder a mate/friend or in some other way connected to josse? if not, how come an guy inactive >2 years suddenly wakes up to SAVE josse on a shitbid on a whiner (yes, noa was even overbidded, but thats nothing known before, at moment X josse was highest bidder on whiner, which might not have looked like a very clever bid to many)

    if there was no contact between those two (and i am not sure there, as said, why would this guy WAKE UP after 2 years just to help josse out with overbid, and THEN To help him again with overpriced bid on guy worth 400k?), then we can assume that mailing this guy AFTER he overbidded on the whiner was legit (similar players, similar age, etc)..

    but then the question remains how such an overprice can be legit, 200k/50% - madness imo. but if it is legit, why are (sometimes) other deals with similar situations are rollbacked? in my eyes, even selling for what was paid would be mad, but i wouldnt ask for a rollback there. but 125k profit on tnx to a guy that just woke up, saved your ass with an overbid? at least a bit dodgy.

    so imo, we have two cases here: first question, was this guy approached BEFORE everything happend? if yes, against the rules (and very high chance we are talkin about some "friendjob")
    if no, then the contact (if existing, but i am 100% sure there) seems legit

    second question, is the 600k bid legit? the biggest problem here is the not existing consistency of the admin team. i always had the opition that every deal should stand (and none rollbacked) until there was a clear proof of "against strict rules" i.e. friendship bid, bid on a mate before leaving etc. overprice? doesnt matter as long as the BUYER is legally interested in the player (no friendship bid, no "leave" bid, just normal overpriced interest) and the seller does nothing wrong either (no offer of X to make the guy bid, like tactics, like coins etc). the problem is, in the past we often had stricter rollbacks, and out of nothing, we have a very very lose dealin with this situation here, where a massive overprice happens after (IMO) dodgy "pre" situation.

    Last edited by vali at 2021-08-22 03:08
  • #14 2021-08-22 03:14

    vali wrote:

    second question, is the 600k bid legit? the biggest problem here is the not existing consistency of the admin team.


    the dynamic cycles of prices don't help with consistency. a huge range of prices even makes it hard for clean users to plan ahead with resale values. a transfer database with analytics tools like brokers use would be very useful there.
    f.e. prices increases after heavy bidfights, before cups, during first/last days of a season, when csm agent does a bad job, when inactives with 0 knowledge do a comeback etc. prices could go down with 1 csm SB, mid season, after cups, when many rage sell at the same time during a cup etc.
    technically a csm agent transfer cannot be rolled back by admins. it's not even intended to roll back csm agent transfers? expensive csm agent transfers might push the limits of tolerable overprices for user to user transfers.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-22 03:22
  • #15 2021-08-22 08:34

    Funny fact btw. We all probably remember the case when Ray received pretty similar bid which was not even as heavily overpriced as this but still it was rollbacked .

    I think admins should follow the same rule / approach for everyone, no matter who is receiving these unrealistically high bids. And if I recall correct some admin even said "It is very unfortunate this being the first reference case for ray which will be applied to similar cases in the future"

    Last edited by zoif at 2021-08-22 08:48
  • #16 2021-08-22 09:16

    For me the problems come from the fact rules arent quantifiable/measurable. If we make same rule IRL, it's like to say 'you are not allowed to drive too fast' ? And so ? The too fast will be totally different from one driver to another. So who is true ?

    And the fact that nothing is clearly defined contributes to the general incomprehension and this kind of discussion. And it's normal because we all have different pov.

    If we want to avoid this kind of case, there is a simple way : have an idea of average player price (to make this, admin can use a tool like powerbi or similar). Then, just define a tolerated overpriced limit (fe : 20%). By this way, the rule is clearly defined and do not depend on every point of view. Admins could use it to have more keys to accept or rollback.

    This wont solve everything because price can evolve in time (increase before cup for exemple) but will limit discussions.

    As long as the rules wont be measurable, we will have a lot of similar case.
    As zoif said, it's not the first case (it wont be the last) : i just see after many seasons, there is always a lot of variation in the interpretation of these rules so it's maybe time to conclude rules are not adequate.

  • #17 2021-08-22 09:21

    Quote:

    am i allowed to mail inactive/idiotic bidders and convince them to buy my shit players overpriced, even by offering something in exchange (for example tactics or other help in the game later on) ?

    Yes, you can mail someone and tell them "hey, this is my player, interested?" (provided you aren't spamming random people)

    You cannot mail someone and say "buy my player and I give you X"

    I have already explained exactly this just like two posts above.

    Quote:

    if you really believe this bid happend without a contact before (mail, discord, no idea), then you are babys living in a world of cottoncandy.

    No this bid happened with contact. He contacted the buyer after he saw him bid on the TL on a previous player.

    Again, something that I have said at least 4 times now the last two pages.

    There is no proof - at least at this very moment - he offered to give him something. He just mailed him to advertise his player.

    Quote:

    i want to have this clear in THIS very thread, because long long ago, i got an identically situation rolledbacked, where my bidder wanted to quit the game soon

    Different variable.

    Quote:

    but yes, if you make clear here and right now, that this kind of transferring is ok, then i will start mailing tons of ppl asap too, am sure i will find some "small overprices" like CE calls it, as well.

    Sure.

    You can mail anyone who may be interested (not spamming people randomly, though) and advertise your player to them.

    I don't see a problem here.

    What you can't do is offer something in return for them buying your player or mass mailing random people.

    Quote:

    anyway, please confirm it is allowed to "convince" players via private mail to bid overprice on your players, would be nice to know.

    You are intentionally twisting my words.

    It's fine to mail people (who may be interested) to advertise your player.

    It's not fine to "convince" them (in quotation marks - I believe you are meaning here to say you give them something in return, pay them or whatever), that's not fine.

    Of course you can't also "convince" them to intentionally pay overprice. Like "hey, can you bid $700k on this player" etc.

    But just mailing someone (without spamming everyone left and right) and asking them to look at your player without any other incentive is of course fine.

  • #18 2021-08-22 09:28

    zoif wrote:

    Funny fact btw. We all probably remember the case when Ray received pretty similar bid which was not even as heavily overpriced as this but still it was rollbacked .

    I think admins should follow the same rule / approach for everyone, no matter who is receiving these unrealistically high bids. And if I recall correct some admin even said "It is very unfortunate this being the first reference case for ray which will be applied to similar cases in the future"

    I can't remember this, but if that is the case ...... Wow 🥶😬

  • #19 2021-08-22 10:45

    Yep, rebbyd it was, but it was like a year ago, so it's already forgotten... Meanwhile Admins allow josse those +20 shady transfers and (it seems) gifting tacts for 500csm...

    I think we're losing our time, it happened +20 times with no sanction... It won't be different by now...

    So this posts are for nothing, cuz according Wrath... ALL ADMINS agree on that

  • #20 2021-08-22 10:53

    BaR7^^ wrote:

    I think we're losing our time, it happened +20 times with no sanction... It won't be different by now...


    It wasn't a 20+ streak. At least one rollback happened. Just report what's suspicious and let the TL refs aka game admins check + approve / rollback

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-22 10:54
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