Rollbacked transfers

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  • #1 2021-08-25 13:23

    Aries wrote:

    Just close this topic. No one is listening anyway.

    #🖕TheUsers


    People need to report what is unfair... Otherwise your rollback to Rai's player without considering other admins opinion would have gone unnoticed...

    This time atleast it was a consensus and all admins agree on that... Which it's pretty the same case that Rai's one but with a different outcome...

    What else need the users listen about? Maybe about the "investigation" of Josse's "join my pay FL for free sets"??

  • #2 2021-08-25 14:27

    Aries wrote:

    Just close this topic. No one is listening anyway.

    #🖕TheUsers

    haha like it and close every other topic except "how wonderful" our leadership is. Welcome to North Korea .

    Last edited by bubu<3 at 2021-08-25 14:27
  • #3 2021-08-25 16:04

    BaR7^^ wrote:

    Aries wrote:

    Just close this topic. No one is listening anyway.

    #🖕TheUsers


    People need to report what is unfair... Otherwise your rollback to Rai's player without considering other admins opinion would have gone unnoticed...

    This time atleast it was a consensus and all admins agree on that... Which it's pretty the same case that Rai's one but with a different outcome...

    What else need the users listen about? Maybe about the "investigation" of Josse's "join my pay FL for free sets"??

    People did report Rais player. We got alot both here on forum and tickets. I posted it to the admin team, and asked what to do. I didn't get a reply and since there is a 24 hour window to respond, I rollbacked it. My mistake was doing it alone, and not with the agreement from other admins. But I saw it as money transfer + unreal bid, since it came from a completely inactive manager and the bid was higher then avg on what that type of players went for.
    I ofc regret doing the rollback on my own, but I i still stand by that it was the right decision.

    Thats why I also think these too from Josse and C_E shpuld have been rollbacked. The deals is simlpy unfair and way over the avg. But **** it, its done and we have to accept it.

  • #4 2021-08-25 16:22

    Absolutely Aries, that's the point! Admin team must draw a line and create a background. So all transfers will be treated same way.... I know sometimes there're hard decisions and they had a deadline to do them, so it's difficult to be perfect, but I just think it's the moment to define that line, so admin team and users will have 0 doubts about what's wrong and what's not

  • #5 2021-08-25 16:58

    But I would still like to understand a few things. Jonas has delivered a multitude of powerful arguments that have hardly been addressed and cannot be refuted in some points. I think he is still waiting for an answer. Another thing that I find interesting is the striking transfer history of Mr. Josse. I remember many years ago to have gotten a few reprimands, because users I neither knew nor had contact with had made an offer above the actual price. If a player like Mr. Josse is such a cheat, why does he not collect a ban. We are not talking about one-time matters but offenses over many years. Every clever person recognizes immediately that something is wrong here. You only need to look at the transfer history. When luck becomes a habit, it has nothing to do with skill, but rather with cheating. Also, repeatedly trading back players with the same person in a short time interval and a simultaneous profit of more than 100k is more than questionable. I personally have nothing against it if one exploits gray areas. Then you were just smarter than the developer, but Mr. Josse consistently violates fair trading. Wrath if you look at his transfer history, then you have to notice that he has the most dirt under his carpets. Or am i wrong?

  • #6 2021-08-25 18:24

    bubu<3 wrote:

    But I would still like to understand a few things. Jonas has delivered a multitude of powerful arguments that have hardly been addressed and cannot be refuted in some points.


    Ofc they can else the bids in question would have been rollbacked.

    bubu<3 wrote:

    I think he is still waiting for an answer. Another thing that I find interesting is the striking transfer history of Mr. Josse. I remember many years ago to have gotten a few reprimands, because users I neither knew nor had contact with had made an offer above the actual price. If a player like Mr. Josse is such a cheat, why does he not collect a ban.


    It's very unlikely that an entire admin team discovers multiple cheats and let a user go away with it. More likely there were simply no proofs backing up such a theory. There were more than enough opportunities for bidders to turn themselves in all together with the suspect of orchestrating if cheats happened. However, nothing was delivered? Therefore "innocent until guilt is proven" still applies to josse. One has to come to the conclusion that josse is a very talented seller or the luckiest seller in the game.

    bubu<3 wrote:

    We are not talking about one-time matters but offenses over many years. Every clever person recognizes immediately that something is wrong here. You only need to look at the transfer history. When luck becomes a habit, it has nothing to do with skill, but rather with cheating. Also, repeatedly trading back players with the same person in a short time interval and a simultaneous profit of more than 100k is more than questionable. I personally have nothing against it if one exploits gray areas. Then you were just smarter than the developer, but Mr. Josse consistently violates fair trading. Wrath if you look at his transfer history, then you have to notice that he has the most dirt under his carpets. Or am i wrong?


    Let's focus more on the facts side. Many of his transfers were overpriced but got approved without rollback by csm's High supreme Court of transfers aka game admins. The suspicious overprice turnt into a legit one in many cases after admin decisions. In only few cases bids on his players were rollbacked. Without proofs of josse orchestrating rollback worthy bids the responsibility is on the side of the bidders in case of rollback including punishment.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-25 21:32
  • #7 2021-08-25 18:38

    Raid on wrote:

    In only few cases bids on his players were rollbacked. Without proofs of josse orchestrating rollback worthy bids the responsibility is on the side of the bidders in case of rollback including punishment.

    Except for this rule:
    §4.4. If you see someone making an unrealistically high bid on one of your players, you should report it immediately. This is for your own benefit as, otherwise, you may be viewed as participating in a money transfer attempt.

    One time, there's no problem... Many times should become you into a suspect... Did he report those? 🤔

  • #8 2021-08-25 18:59

    BaR7^^ wrote:

    [Except for this rule:
    §4.4. If you see someone making an unrealistically high bid on one of your players, you should report it immediately. This is for your own benefit as, otherwise, you may be viewed as participating in a money transfer attempt.

    One time, there's no problem... Many times should become you into a suspect... Did he report those? 🤔


    One requirement is missing there :
    the price must be considered unrealistic high by game admins. If the price is realistic, he doesn't have to report his own transfer.

  • #9 2021-08-25 19:04

    Yep, but those which were rollbacked were considered like that, weren't they? And still no autoreport (?)

  • #10 2021-08-25 21:02

    the rule 4.4 is completely stupid imo -

    take the "josse case" - why would he report the bid, he placed the guy on TL For 600k, knowin it is overpriced

    take someone selling player X worth 10k and some inactive guy bids 200k - is it your "job" to check your sales day and night to report a unrealistic bid? even if u have no time? makes no sense

    it is ADMIN JOB to check the transferlist daily, we are talking about very few pages compared to the past, and there are users that help out with reports too. thats more then enough. no sick bid will run unnoticed, the problem is how the cases are dealt with. one time X, other time Y, while x and y are complete opposite values

  • #11 2021-08-25 21:56

    why blame jose and C_E, maybe they just "didn`t knew" ?

    things like this happen all the time and it happened in the past with admins and community friends ragequits and all the drama(10xgod it`s cleared for a while)

    but it`s really necessary for the community to step in every time and try to fix things? Give solutions and show how it should be handled? still good that some of us have some energy left

    if admins are overwhelmed they should ask for more and MORE help tbh;

    There are some key community users that could really help with plans/ideas/strategies (as already stated in this thread)

  • #12 2021-08-25 22:02

    tricky wrote:

    if admins are overwhelmed they should ask for more and MORE help tbh;

    There are some key community users that could really help with plans/ideas/strategies (as already stated in this thread)


    the fastlane to changing things would be teaming up with the guys who can pull the trigger and throw the banhammer => joining the admin team

  • #13 2021-08-26 10:11

    Raid on wrote:

    tricky wrote:

    if admins are overwhelmed they should ask for more and MORE help tbh;

    There are some key community users that could really help with plans/ideas/strategies (as already stated in this thread)


    the fastlane to changing things would be teaming up with the guys who can pull the trigger and throw the banhammer => joining the admin team

    It’s not like you could join the admin team at any point. Since I joined the game 2 years ago, this is the first new admin election if I’m not mistaking. The userbase is small and there are obviously too few admins.
    It’s not like we didn’t report each and every shady deal we’ve encountered, but rules apply differently from user to user and we all see that.
    So even though some if not many of us throw in a helping hand, most of the times no actions are taken against the old managers, only when it’s just way too clear not to do so.

  • #14 2021-08-26 10:21

    Quote:

    It’s not like we didn’t report each and every shady deal we’ve encountered, but rules apply differently from user to user and we all see that.

    I can definitely see why it seems like that.

    Given the subjective and dynamic nature of prices and how every individual person perceives value, it's very hard to determine what a "correct" price is (I personally think there's not even such a thing but I don't want to get too philosophical on a game forum), therefore the outcome of individual cases can see contradictory in comparison to others.

    I think Raid on explained very well why this is so on the previous two pages.

    We are currently discussing internally how to better tackle these cases and how to achieve more consistent results in the future.

    We are absolutely not ignoring you, I can assure you. This is right now one of the main issues that's being debated and discussed internally (talking here broadly about transfers and the TL).

    Last edited by Apoc at 2021-08-26 11:54
  • #15 2021-08-26 11:02

    Apoc wrote:

    We are currently discussing internally how to better tackle these cases and how to achieve more consistent results in the future.

    We are absolutely not ignoring you, I can assure you. This is right now one of the main issues that's being debated and discussed internally (talking here broadly about transfers and the TL).

    Sounds promising. Do not forget to inform users about the outcome of these discussions whenever you are finished

    Last edited by zoif at 2021-08-26 11:03
  • #16 2021-08-26 11:12

    Apoc wrote:

    Quote:

    It’s not like we didn’t report each and every shady deal we’ve encountered, but rules apply differently from user to user and we all see that.

    I can definitely see why it seems like that.

    Given the subjective and dynamic nature of prices and how every individual person perceives value, it's very hard to determine what a "correct" price is (I personally think there's not even such a thing but I don't want to get too philosophical on a game forum), therefore the outcome of individual cases can see contradictory in comparison to others.

    I think Rain on explained very well why this is so on the previous two pages.

    We are currently discussing internally how to better tackle these cases and how to achieve more consistent results in the future.

    We are absolutely not ignoring you, I can assure you. This is right now one of the main issues that's being debated and discussed internally (talking here broadly about transfers and the TL).

    Don’t get me wrong, I did not and will not say that we are being ignored. Also I both know and agree that judging prices is both hard and inconsistent. You can buy the same player 3 times/season with 3 completely different outcomes, great buy, reasonable and overpaid. I recently sold a player for ~42K that I failed to sell in 2 attempts for 35K. I know what supply and demand is. I know that a transfer market like this game has will always fluctuate. But what probably most of us crying wolf are trying to get “fixed” are either the “bad” decisions of the admin team or the shady cover-ups we can obviously see here and there.
    I remember one particular case in which manager “X” tried to buy a young 500 for ~700K, transfer that was rerolled 3-4 times by the exact same admin, even though players like that sometimes hit above the 1M csm mark, and that player was sold 3 days later for above 800K to another manager that curiously was in the same community as the admin the rerolled the transfer. No actions were taken neither towards the admin or towards that transfer even though half the active managers exploded in the forum.
    So you maybe understand our “frustration” and understand that we are not to blame that we repeat the same thing over and over, because also this kind of deals are made on a regular basis.

    Maybe one “helping” point would be taking the time to make some research on market prices from cheapest to the most expensive player sold at a given age with given limits, so it’s easier to judge a transfer when you know that f.e. a 90-71-98-98-98 player at 23yo was sold for a max of 200K, and everything above that to be rerolled except if there are more than 5 managers from different countries and communities bidding above that price. (Just an idea)

  • #17 2021-08-26 11:42

    PixeL wrote:

    Maybe one “helping” point would be taking the time to make some research on market prices from cheapest to the most expensive player sold at a given age with given limits, so it’s easier to judge a transfer when you know that f.e. a 90-71-98-98-98 player at 23yo was sold for a max of 200K, and everything above that to be rerolled except if there are more than 5 managers from different countries and communities bidding above that price. (Just an idea)


    Looks like much more work to gather such a list. But will it make a difference? Going by this kind of research and considering the current extreme range of prices admin team could relax the same or even more as 99.99% of the transfers would still be within legit price limits. Then it would only need one admin to leak the secret overprice limits to allow someone to orchestrate transfers under the radar all the time.
    Manipulating such a list would be very easy. It just requires multiple users to bidfight on a csm agent player to increase the maximum price limit of a specific player type. Csm agent sales cannot be rollbacked by admins.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-26 11:48
  • #18 2021-08-26 14:59

    I clearly realised admins does what ever they want in these "one of a kind" situations even if they clearly stated one thing after first case they can do opposite in the next one. So any shady/missclick/ass saving bid will turn out in rules bending, friends ass saving.

    If you think anything will change to better, try to read links below from 2016 with few (yes just a few cases from all that happened at that time cause I stopped caring to make a proper topic to change something)

    Rollbacked transfers, cheating, insane bids etc. Same rules for everyone? #3
    Rollbacked transfers, cheating, insane bids etc. Same rules for everyone? #2
    Rollbacked transfers, cheating, insane bids etc. Same rules for everyone?

    Last edited by Ludis at 2021-08-26 15:00
  • + #19 2021-08-26 20:30 Post deleted by Wrath

  • #20 2021-08-26 23:33

    Ludis wrote:

    If you think anything will change to better, try to read links below from 2016 with few (yes just a few cases from all that happened at that time cause I stopped caring to make a proper topic to change something)

    Rollbacked transfers, cheating, insane bids etc. Same rules for everyone? #3
    Rollbacked transfers, cheating, insane bids etc. Same rules for everyone? #2
    Rollbacked transfers, cheating, insane bids etc. Same rules for everyone?


    the newest thread was created around 4 years or 28+ seasons ago. now we have different admins with a different rollback philosophy and a new generation of game moderators who might become game admins later on.
    possibly a good time now for a sellers who can join a gold rush by doing legit advertising to less active users.

    Last edited by Raid on at 2021-08-26 23:34
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